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Death Battle! Picking Apart The Errors

1/7/2012

22 Comments

 
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             So how did you enjoy the Death Battle! between Wily and Robotnik?  While I definite enjoyed the crazy war brought forth by "Wiz and Boomstick", I found myself being caught up in errors made in the video.  Being verse in Rockman canon and having some familiarity with Sonic the Hedgehog from the past couple months of research made these mistakes extremely opaque.  While I'm sympathetic with the insane amount of information that was needed for this video compared with the previous Death Battle! videos, it still doesn't make any of it correct.  So that I'm not the only one tortured by these mistakes, Let's go through them!  (And if you haven't seen the match up yet, I suggest you do so now, this article is riddled with spoilers.)

             Just to clarify, this is a list of technical errors. Nothing about "likely" choices made by the characters opposed to what was used in the video match.  Nor is "what would look better" in terms of action opposed to what was used in the video match.  That would be editorializing the piece, and something I'll save for another time.

Which School is That Again?

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           I will consider this a nitpick, since this mistake is something that's "lost in translation".  As it goes, Dr. Wily was at ローバート工科大学, which to the best of my ability translates to "Robbert Engineering University".  So I can sorta understand how it could of gotten mutated into the "Robot University of Technology".  (*And #20 just informed me that the Robot University of Technology is in fact canon in the English Localization. So much for my whining about it,..)

The Wrong Machines

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One is deadly, the other is safe.
            The Wily Capsule was mistaken with the Wily UFO (aka "Wily Spaceship", for the English localization name).  For clarification, the Wily UFO is Wily's general use vehicle and has 0 attack power.  On the other hand, the Wily Capsule is a last resort attack vehicle, and offers some of Wily's MOST impressive offensive and defensive power since it is Wily's true last line of defense.  Also worth noting that with exception to the top mounters, it is usually the Wily Capsule that's INTEGRATED into the Wily Machine.  Particularly in the case of Wily Machine No 9.

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Two very different machines.
             In that same light, Wily Machine 8 was swapped with the Wily Machine used in Rockman & Forte.  At a glance, I can see how one might mistake the two if they aren't side by side, since their general shape and colors are similar.  But the give away is the options of attacks the machine can do given what details (and thus weapons barrels) are available.  Though I'm incline to think this switch up occurred because of a certain wiki and Wily Machine No 8 lacks easy to use sprite rips over at Sprites Inc.  (*and it looks like after this post, someone actually too heed to my commenting and corrected the wiki.  So the link is now for the previous version with the error still on it)

That's What They Are Called?

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             As far as I know, the term "Badnik" is used for all of the animal theme robots deployed by Robotnik from the early Sonic the Hedgehog games.  That is to say, that's the general term for the minion army.  So how did it become an term exclusive for the "Deadliest of Robotnik's army"? But it's probably just something for the sake of titling them.

Fall of a Devil

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If things were correct, that bomb won't do much.
              I know that Napalm a flammable gel, so it's tempting to go and think that a "Napalm Bomb" could be a weapon to take out the Yellow Devil.  Unfortunately, a Napalm Bomb's power is primarily in the force of it's explosion, not from any tangible heat or flame from it.  For this reason the one hit super effectiveness in the video should not have been used. While I can explain in detail all the facts that supports this assertion of mine, there is only thing I need to say to prove the my point.  Rockman can fight against the Yellow Devil using Napalm Bombs in Rockman the Power Battle.  And they DON'T WORK WELL ON HIM AT ALL.

Pathology of an Illness

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At least it's "labeled" Roboenza,..
              It is funny that one of the principle parts of the fight, the application of Robotenza, actually used the Robotenza Cure Pill as it's visual representation.  Though I do understand the problem is that Robotenza never had a visual representation, so they felt they had to use something was somewhat related.  Since I'm on the subject, unlike in the video, it's completely speculation that Robotenza has any relation to the Zero Virus (Maverick Virus).  Also it's exact effects are kinda vague as well.

Powers of the King

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               Pharaohman is a robot modeled after the Egyptian Kings of the past for the purposes of Pyramid Excavation.  Fitting to his motif, he was built to harness and use solar energy, and attacks with it in the form of his Pharaoh Shot and Pharaoh Wave.  And this works since the Pharaoh is said to be the Earthly manifestations of the sun god, Ra.

               With that said,  we got some generic "controls fire energy" in the Death Battle! notation for Pharaohman.  While both solar energy and fire involve heat as their attack capacity, the two entities are still rather different things.  Do you think I am getting too technical? Go tell me a laser is the same as a flame thrower. This is about the same thing going on here.

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That shield shouldn't be able to take that.
           And to add to the confusion of Pharaohman's abilities, the "Eye Shield" of his is in fact susceptible to blade weapons. As such, Mecha Sonic's spin attack should of have broken through. Not something I would nitpick too much about, but Rockman 2: The Power Fighters actually has Dr. Right tell the players that a sharp weapon can cut the shield on the stage select screen, and that carried over to the English Localization as well:

"Dr. Light: You'll have trouble if you attack the big eye of Pharaoh Man too much. Attack with a sharp weapon that can cut his eye to pieces! "

A Problem of Scale

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Godzilla: 50m tall    King Kong: 7m tall
Perfectly Scaled
            Of the errors made in the video, this is probably the one that took me out of it the most.  I can understand generalized misconceptions and even deliberate inaccuracies for the sake of the script. But dramatic scale differences is very distracting, as things end up look entirely out of place.  And it even contributes to a potential problem elsewhere for the sake of the possibilities of the storyline (though explaining that aspect is something I'm saving for another article).



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Height Chart #1
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The smaller size explains his easy defeat?
_             As you can see here, E-102 Gamma is 215cm tall (for US standards measurements, about 7 feet).  Watching this battle footage of Beta vs Gamma from Sonic Adventures, you can see that Beta is roughly 1.5 times Gamma's height.  So where does this place Magnet Man? While we know he's taller than Rockman (whose 132cm tall), he isn't all that much taller, putting him approximately 145 cm.  A far cry from being at about the same size as in the video.



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Height Chart #2
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Sizes looks reversed from the chart, huh?
        And we have the showdown between Wily Machine 9 and the Death Egg Robo.  As previously mentioned, Rockman is 132cm tall. And Sonic happens to be 100cm tall, about 4/5 of Rockman's height.  Now put the two in scale to each other (Chart #2), and the respective villains super mecha, and you see clearly a major size difference.  Or you can even take it one step further and use "Classic Sonic" and "Classic Death Egg Robot".  With Classic Sonic being a half head smaller than modern sonic, the mecha size comparison gets even worse. There's the same problem with elephant robot Paozo as well, though I don't think I need to explain it more,...

Where's that sound?

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          Just a minor personal gripe here.  But why didn't they used the same sound effect the Metalls had for the Sniper Joes when they were blocking shots?  It's not like it wasn't readily available for them to use, and that sound effect is pretty iconic for Sniper Joes as well, seeing how Joes block so many impatience gamers shots with their shields.

I Don't Think That's How It Works,...

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            And this will segway well with a future article,...Metal Sonic's Scan abilities.  The only time they were ever used in the Sonic series was in the scanning of living beings NOT machines.  He only adsorbed Machines for parts. In Sonic the Figthers, he copied his fellow animal fighters moves.  In Sonic Heroes, he copied Sonic's, Shadow's and a Chao's DNA to give him the power system necessary for his Metal Madness form.  To make a jump of assumption that this would allow him to gain more power and weapons by scanning other robots via his scanning is taking quite a liberty.   Flesh and DNA compositions is worlds different from Metal and Processors after all.  As with muscle movements vs mechanical assemblies. But the produced video had Metal Sonic taking out foes and gaining power against each and every robot combatant he faced, until he finally had the power to adsorb the Egg Fleet's parts and become Metal Madness,...

22 Comments
Anon
1/7/2012 01:06:09 am

"Which School is That Again?"
Death Battle says Wily was a professor, but wasn't him a student from the university?

"The Wrong Machines"
Wily UFO isn't completely inoffensive. The Capsule from Rockman World 4's final battle is actually the UFO (or identical to it) and W5 ending shows it can attack. And comics?

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Rightot
1/7/2012 01:22:21 pm

Well the way it's worded in the bios, it actually affords the leeway to interpret the total capacity of Wily's university career. As in, it never explicitly say he was ABSOLUTELY AND ONLY a student there with Right. So I'm letting it slide even though the general conciousness on the top will stay "student".

And if you want more fun to that mess, All sources I've seen actually has the "wily capsule" in Rockman & Forte officially named the "Wily UFO". But I figure it's okay to go with the general concept and look towards the main games as the mold. Good thinking on your part about this topic though!

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LBD_Nytetrayn link
1/9/2012 02:08:07 pm

Hmm, "Robot University of Technology?" I've always seen it as "Robot Institute of Technology"...

Same difference, I guess, more or less. Just wondering how such a discrepancy might have occurred, unless it really is the same difference in Japanese... though that still doesn't quite mesh with your "Engineering" versus that one's "Technology," which is the main real discrepancy.

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LBD_Nytetrayn link
1/9/2012 05:09:36 pm

...oh, right. It came from vol. 1 of Megamix. That explains where that came from, at least.

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#20 link
1/10/2012 05:09:12 am

"Robot Institute of Technology" was mentioned in the US Mega Man 8 manual years before Udon, so you could say it's been the "official" translation for a long while. Kouka Daigaku, or "engineering college" or however you choose to say it is a pretty blanket term for tech-related trade schools. For instance in Japan, M.I.T. is called Massachusetts Kouka Daigaku (マサチューセッツ工科大学).

The most interesting part is "ローバート", which certainly could be intended as a very western-accented version of "robot", but on the other hand if the school is connected to the "LIT Manual Design Contest" that Wily and Light competed in, then perhaps it should be some variation of "Lobart" (or just that classic R/L confusion). J-Wikipedia says "Lobert Institute of Technology", but doesn't bother to source so I've no idea if that's a fact Capcom has published or just an educated guess, as often tend to show up in video game articles.

Auto
1/9/2012 06:53:10 pm

That's the thing I don't quite get with the Udon translations. For all intents and purposes their translation staff could and would run circles around me and my poor Japanese language skills. But they do weird things every now and again, like "Wily Castle" being called "Wily City", which is a mistake that I would only expect from a novice in Kanji.

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#20 link
1/10/2012 04:46:53 am

You've confused me. "Wily City" is the name of the base that gets destroyed in Gigamix 2's White Nightmare, in Japanese and English. Did Udon mistakenly use it for something else as well?

Anyway, I do agree that sometimes the translation is a little off what I would expect, mostly in the early works like Zero Collection but also with other random things like "Ceramic Chitin" or the inconsistency across books of "World/Global Robot Alliance", and oh yeah, that recent Ariga piece on their blog that used "Dr. Wright" (but was since corrected). 24 years later, and that's still popping up. ;)

LBD_Nytetrayn link
1/10/2012 04:34:38 pm

Not a correct term? Dang... I rather loved the name "Wily City." It sort of made sense, as it was on that island from MM8 (if I'm not mistaken), though it probably owes to my love of "Autobot City" and such from Transformers as well.

I just love the idea of a whole city built around the Wily Castle concept, occupied by robots...

LBD_Nytetrayn link
1/10/2012 04:36:03 pm

...and I'd reply to #20 directly, but I seem unable to. I guess I had completely forgotten about that from the MM8 booklet, but it's coming back to me, now that you mention it...

#20 link
1/10/2012 04:34:09 am

Finally got around to watching the Death Battle, and it wasn't as bad as I was fearing it would be. ;)

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Zan
1/11/2012 12:52:25 am

-Since I'm on the subject, unlike in the video, it's completely speculation that Robotenza has any relation to the Zero Virus (Maverick Virus).-
I would beg to differ. IntiCreates wrote the following on the Rockman Zero Collection site:
“… an incident occurred where an unknown computer virus came from space and causes robots to become violent and riotous…”
“A subspecies of the terrible computer virus from long ago is generated, and begins driving robots mad locally. The human leadership acknowledges these infected robots as Mavericks, and orders them to be disposed of. The source was found to be an unknown computer virus that had prevailed over 100 years ago emerging from the capsule Zero slumbered in. Later, this virus was named the Sigma Virus, after the Reploid “Sigma” who led a revolt against the human leadership.”
Not only does this present a clear cut link to Robotenza, (the “Threat From Outer Space!!” from Rockman10’s subtitle) it also specifies that the term is “Sigma” Virus; “Zero” Virus is an X5-exclusive. This is consistent with all of Capcom’s publications since X5. Prior to that “Irregular” Virus was more often used.

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Joseph Collins link
1/11/2012 10:09:12 am

So... what you're saying is that Robotenza is a space virus rather than something Dr. Wily created and spread around the planet? And not only did it come from space, but he put it into Zero as well?

There's four major flaws with this:
1. What reason would Wily have to put a seemingly latent strand of Robotenza into Zero OR his capsule after his Robotenza plan was thwarted? Dr. Wily generally isn't the type to do repeat performances. (Though he DOES like to frame innocent people fairly often, I have to admit.)

2. As Auto pointed out, the exact symptoms of Robotenza are fairly vague. The game itself states that robots infected with it became "violent and riotous", but is that even part of the programming itself? Rock, Roll, Blues, and Forte were all infected and not a one of them started breaking things. They all just kind of keeled over, sick with... well... "the robot flu". If anything, it seems to me that robots infected with Robotenza became violent either because they were reprogrammed manually, or because they became "sick of being sick", as anyone would be after being unable to do anything but lay sick in bed for a month or longer.

3. I'm reasonably sure "Threat From Outer Space!!" was a non-sequitor flavor title more than anything in the case of Rockman 10. All the other titles for Rockman 2 through 9 had SOMETHING to do with the games, but Rockman 10's title had seemingly nothing to do with anything at all (excluding Wily Castle). Even the game itself never hints that the virus came from space. All and all, it smells like a red herring to me.

4. Since when is Inti Creates the be-all-end-all of Rockman lore, exactly? They created the Rockman Zero series (and Rockman 9 and 10) under the guidance of Capcom and Keiji Inafune, but other than the series taking place after X4 or X5, how much of it is really canon? Additionally, you got this from Inti Creates' English site, right? The English branches of game companies are known to make crap up, as well as get their facts skewed, as I'm sure you're aware. Remember the Mega Man 10 US site?

5. Robots were going "Irregular" long before Zero was ever found. Why else would Cain Labs have created the Irregular Hunters, headed originally by Sigma? On that same note, I'm reasonably sure Sigma rebelled on his own, rather than be "infected" by punching Zero in the forehead.

Of course, this is all just counter-speculation. I could easily be wrong or mistaken.

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Joseph Collins link
1/11/2012 10:10:52 am

Er, five. Not four. I HAD four originally, but then thought of another point. Derp.

Zan
1/11/2012 08:59:27 pm

3. As all the previous subtitles had ‘something’ to do with the game (as little as that may be), the same goes for R10. In that regard, it’s more that Robotenza was created by Wily and spread from space (Wily Castle) around the planet. Or at least thought to be from space before Wily announced otherwise, followed by the ZERO-series prevalent corruption of historical record to paint a slightly distorted truth. That is, any theoretical relations with the Evil Energy aside. In my opinion the intent is clear; Sigma Virus is a sub-species of a computer virus from space that threatened the world of 20XX. Robotenza accurately fits the description of that computer virus unless another one comes along.


4. The aforementioned quotes come not just from Inti Creates, but from the Rockman Zero Collection site hosted by Capcom of Japan. As reported here:

http://www.themmnetwork.com/2010/04/09/does-the-rockman-zero-collection-storyline-explain-everything/

and:

http://www.themmnetwork.com/wiki/index.php?title=Rockman_Zero_Collection_Timeline

The site has since underwent a major overhaul removing this timeline of events, but remaining character profiles still reference the concepts introduced within it.

2. I see no reason to doubt that the Robotenza itself turns robots violent and riotous. This is how it’s been described in all the official materials surrounding the game, and further collaborated by Koji Izuki’s R10 Extra F manga included with the official Rockman10 Image Soundtrack.


1. The Sigma Virus was put inside Zero/Zero’s capsule by Wily, not Robotenza per se. That he did so has been known since Rockman X4 and/or X5. The reason he did so is described by the timeline, confirming RZOCW’s statements, highlighted by Zero’s behavior in X4, and further elaborated by the virus’ function in Rockman X2 and Rockman X5:

“Zero was produced by Dr. Wily, who schemed at taking over the world. But he contained a flaw in his cognitive program that made him violent and unwilling to obey instructions, so Dr. Wily himself sealed Zero in a capsule.”
“Zero, having his armor damaged in the battle with Sigma, also becomes infected with the virus. Due to this, Zero’s personality completely changed, and he would turn to working as a Maverick Hunter.”

The virus is a means to control the once uncontrollable Zero. A process that was seemingly not fully completed at the time; although his violence was subdued, Wily could not control him just yet. Innately related to this are Zero’s imperfect virus countermeasures, gaining power from the virus before fully awakening to his true self.


5. As #20 can attest to, the notion that Sigma was infected during the battle with Zero is an ancient one; most if not all RockmanX4 books implicate at least something of the sort. This is not just at the moment of the punch, but rather throughout the whole thing. You see, the virus had been spreading from the capsule for quite some time before the battle, and been causing the first irregulars described in Cain’s Journal:

"1XX years ago: The Sigma Virus outbreak
A subspecies of the terrible computer virus from long ago is generated, and begins driving robots mad locally. The human leadership acknowledges these infected robots as Mavericks, and orders them to be disposed of. The source was found to be an unknown computer virus that had prevailed over 100 years ago emerging from the capsule Zero slumbered in. Later, this virus was named the Sigma Virus, after the Reploid “Sigma” who led a revolt against the human leadership."

"1XX years ago: Formation of the Maverick Hunters
Following through with the disposal of Mavericks, the human leadership decides to have Mavericks exterminated by Reploids, and forms the Maverick Hunters. Ironically, the leader of the first generation of Maverick Hunters is Sigma."

"1XX years ago: Zero awakens
Receiving information of Zero awakening from his capsule and causing violence, the Maverick Hunter Sigma finds and intercepts him. during this incident, Sigma is infected by the unknown computer virus leaking out from Zero’s capsule, but at the same time Zero, having his armor damaged in the battle with Sigma, also becomes infected with the virus. Due to this, Zero’s personality completely changed, and he would turn to working as a Maverick Hunter."

"1XX years ago: The Maverick Wars begin
Infected by the unknown computer virus, Sigma defects to the side of the Mavericks and leads a revolt against human leadership. The wars between the Mavericks and the Maverick Hunters for the future of humanity begins."

That Sigma rebelled of his own free will is true as well, though. By Rockman X8's account, that is. In that regard, do consider that Sigma isn't controlled by the virus; he is the virus. The virus made him evil, but that evil Sigma is wholly capable of making his own decisions.

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LBD "Nytetrayn" link
1/13/2012 10:55:52 pm

I have to admit, the whole chain of Zero/virus relation is weird to me...

1) Zero is activated, he cannot be controlled, is restrained in a capsule.

2) A virus is added but not implemented to control him.

3) Zero awakens in the future, goes ape-slag and starts wrecking everyone's jive.

4) Sigma busts his armor, apparently making him susceptible to the virus and turning him into a good guy.

5) Add more virus, and he becomes his "true" self, which isn't so good.

Just the whole "good guy" thing seems like a weird move in the line of progression there, unless I'm missing something.

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Zan
1/14/2012 03:05:33 am

As I see it, going conjecture mode on the stated facts, the virus was included in his system (RZOCW: First Infected), but unable to control him at the time due to his imperfect virus countermeasures (mentioned in Omega's profile) causing the power up phenomenon from X5. Perhaps Wily was trying to gradually trying to build up Zero's immune system, the "anti-bodies", for the sake of strength. Before going the direct route of putting some sort of chip in his head, as in X2.

During the battle with Sigma, I suppose the "W" in his gem signified the moment of his being affected by the virus. Getting punched out by Sigma at the time couldn't have done him much good, leaving the process incomplete.

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Rightot
1/17/2012 06:42:24 pm

Wow, the "most commented" article on the site, and for all the wrong reasons,...

My only reply to Zan is that you are pulling a lot of circumstantials as solid linking facts. Remember back when everyone was saying the "outer space virus" was suppose to be the Evil Energy from Rockman 8? It's sorta the same thing here. And you would expect Roll to be kept locked down if the virus is causes untreatable violence. I'll give you it's not a bad theory you have, but that's still quite different from definite fact.

It's one of the great yet unanswered questions: Did Robotneza make them violent, or did they get so frustrated by the sickness they turned violent, or did Wily just used the veil of sick robots to plant his own world domination robots around, which gave him a means to get close enough to infect Rock/Blues?

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Zan
1/22/2012 10:10:48 pm

@Rightot:

The description of the space virus is a perfect match to Robotenza, better than Evil Energy. If for whatever reason Evil Energy is the reference instead, Roboenza serves as another link toward the Sigma Virus. Either way, to deny the ties between Roboenza and Sigma Virus is like denying Zero´s ties to Wily in the old days.

That said, there´s absolutely no reason to question whether or not violent behavior is in some way a symptom of Robotenza itself. The whole plotline of the game runs on that premise, is never contradicted, and further backed by Koji Izuki´s Extra F.

The matter of Roll not being kept locked up is inconsequential. Right is still developing a cure to solve the whole incident under the pretense that robots are good by nature and their violence is caused by Robotenza.

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Rightot
2/2/2012 04:57:19 pm

No, it's a fair matching of details, not a perfect one. Unless your comprehension magically creates causation from "threat from outer space" having an absolute meaning that the virus was released from that fun miles high addition to Wily castle. But that was never stated or demonstrated. (And to me, I always figured it was thrown as a funny last moment juke, like with "mystery of Dr. Wily" from 2 with the "mystery" being the short lived alien stunt)

And this is totally different from "Wily isn't by Zero". There's almost zero jiggle room from the stuff in X4, X5 and X6 as well as the picture in Power Fighters. And of course the thing that overkills the Zero is by Wily point: We have the creators telling us Wily built Zero. I don't see that with Robotenza and the Irregular/Zero virus.

For the Robotenza, your arguments are constantly relying on: "No reason not to believe X and Y are related." and that's an Argument off Ignorance which shifts the burden of proof to the opposite side when you are suppose to be the one to provide it. We have no reason not to believe lots of things, but this does not make them true. Like I have no reason not to believe that my odor is what keeps the boogey man away. The lack of a boogey man is more likely the cause, and I'm probably loosing lot of friends with this odor,...

I will again state that your theory overlaps the existing information very well. But as with my whole Everlasting Rockbuster Theory that I spent entirely way too long writing, it's at best a theory.

(*And on a side note, that was a pretty poor rebuttal to the Roll argument. The fact they are good by nature has zero impact on what a robot ends up doing if your theory is that Robotenza makes them crazy violent. Sure an insanity defense may get you out of prison, but you are still put in a psych ward because you can at any time be told by that imaginary leprechaun that everything needs to be burned. Burned to the ground.)

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NateVirus
9/26/2012 02:14:27 pm

When you compared all the Death Egg Robot sizes, did you use the one from Sonic Generations? Not sure if it is bigger than Wily Machine 8, but it seems to at least be bigger than the ones from Sonic 2 and Sonic 4.

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anonymo
10/8/2013 01:44:22 pm

death battle is wrong about many battles take cloud vs link......cloud can withstand a supernova not to mention light of destruction ff6
go to youtube look it up it destroys continents
......................luke skywalker vs harry potter stupify yes it confuses but did you know it also ko's not to mention petrificus totalus can petrify luke skywalker where they realy right i think not
they dont do reserch on anything thy just put things they like to make you mad harry potter can defeat luke skywalker also link can defeat cloud so what if yuffie took materia cloud has items that do the same things link as a frog an unless link has maidens kiss he loses

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anonymo
10/8/2013 01:48:33 pm

sorry cloud can defeat link also the golden gauntlet only is used to lift things up it does not increase strength

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